Curse

Sli Ander · Nov 17, 2006, 06:48 PM // 18:48

The title says it all. I was curious exactly which class was least dependent on the others skillwise, a class being an individual profession. In other words, if we could have a char without a secondary profession. For the sake of argument I'm excluding special builds like 55's because under the right circumstances they are pathetic. In other words, I'm speaking generally about most situations.

Monk:
pros-
Good healing
Good damage mitigation(prot prayers)
High damage versus undead
Condition and hex removal
Hard res(which doesn't mean much in a solo scenario like this)
Partial immunity to spellcasters (spell breaker)

Cons-
Low to medium damage against anything else
Weak against mesmers, necros
Low armor
No running abilities
Little Energy management skills.(Divine spirit, and a couple elites from factions)
no interrupts
Many heals are for target others

Ranger:
Pros-
Best self heal outside of monks(troll ungeunt)
Versatile
Medium to high damage(dependent on build)
Traps deal aoe damage,condition spreading
self condition removal(partial)
Spirits create area effects
High armor versus elements
Evasion skills/running skills
Interrupts
Ranged attacks gain distance from hills
Expertise is built in energy management
Has pet to draw aggro/absorb damage
Spirits can also be used as decoys

Cons-
The two heals are long cast, heal over time. Healing spring is easily interrupted
No damage mitigation outside of evasion
Traps are easily interruptible
Condition spreaders weak against condition removers/spreads(plague touch,etc)
Spirits affect allies and enemies(though a pro in certain situations)
Armor low versus physical damage
Weak against blindness(obviously)

Necromancer
pros-
Vampiric abilities allow health management
Soul Reaping built in energy management,though dependent on killing enemies.
Creation of a small army of minions( good for drawing aggro, dispersing damage)
Condition spreading
Orders provide buffs toward teammates damage
Curses and wells provide good anti monk abilities, as well as team buffs
Health stealing is armor ignoring
Enchant removals

Cons-
Dependent on health sacrifice( with some skills)
Medium to low armor
Many abilities dependent on corpses
Hexes are weak against monk hex protection
Conditions are weak against certain ranger protections
No running abilites/evasions

Elementalist:
Pros-
Energy Storage. nuff said
Versatile 5 attribute lines instead of 4
High Aoe and direct elemental damage
Armor buffing spells
High Energy management in the form of Glyphs and attunements
Damage boost to weapons using Conjure frost, etc.
Wards
Aoe knockdowns
Slowdowns
Minor running abilities/major evasion

Cons-
Dependent on fighting enemies w/o natural bonus against element in use(fire fire imps,etc)
No stances
Weak against interrupts
Exhaustion
Certain armor buffs and the healing ability dependent on spellcasting.
Enemies run from aoe( a pro in certain situations)

Warrior
Pros-
Uses adrenaline to offset low energy pool
Versatile, 5 attr. lines instead of four
Shouts buff allies
Good running abilities(Charge also carries allies with you)
Temporary health gain skills
High Armor
Interrupts
Stances(anti knockdown, defense, etc)
Energy management through stances, certain elites
Knockdowns
Direct heal is instant gain of health(not heal over time)
Strength gives armor penetration

Cons-
Direct heal gives -40 armor
Temp heals are not real heals
Low energy pool(weak against energy denial)
No condition/hex removal
No damage mitigation outside of armor
Adrenaline management is key
Little Aoe

Mesmer:
Pros-
Fast casting
Most interrupts
Energy Denial
Degen abilities
Slowdown abilities
Strong against casters
Enchantment removal
Adrenaline denial
Energy management

Cons-
No healing
Some skills dependent on enemy reaction(attacking triggers energy denial,etc)
Requires high levels of knowledge about the enemies abilities
Requires good timing/judgement about when to use abilities (removing your own hex to deal damage,etc)

Assassin:
Pros-
Shadowstepping
Increased critical chances
good against individual spike targets
Speed boosts
healing abilities
Medium damage mitigation

Cons-
Low armor
Highly dependent on chain attacks (weak against chain interruption)
Healing dependent specific situations
Individual damage of each weapon low

Ritualist
Pros-
Good healing and damage mitigation
Defensive spirits only affect allies
Versatile spirits allow crossing into other professions territories(life stealing,etc)
Aoe heals and damage
group buffs
Adrenaline denial
hard res
Spirits can be used as decoys

Cons-
Spirits can be killed, cannot move
susceptible to interrupts
Channeling line deals mostly lightening damage(weak against anyone prepared for that)
Long recharges on many skills

That's all I can think of, and as you can tell I have a very limited knowledge of some of these classes. So if anyone would care to add to Assassins, rits, dervishes, paragons, or simply your favorite classes, I would greatly appreciate it.
In the end, I think its hard to say if any class has an advantage over any other. I think Ranger comes closes to being most independent, as its a middle of the road class which has tons of variety and the ability to have its pet do the tanking.

But that's just my two cents

I'd like to hear yours.

/edit for clarification
/edit to add comments by Jetdoc And Cosyfiep to list

Stupid Shizno · Nov 17, 2006, 06:56 PM // 18:56

the Warrior/Monk is the least dependant class in the game.

Other then that, if all are behind the control of a player, i have little dependnce on them in a pug.

Sli Ander · Nov 17, 2006, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Umm...Warrior/monk is not a class. What I meant by that whole post is what INDIVIDUAL class (just warrior, just monk, just ranger, etc.) is least dependent on the others. Though its true they will never be alone, as we all have secondary professions to augment weakness, but I figured it would be interesting to find out which most people felt was most 'durable' alone.

lennymon · Nov 17, 2006, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Ranger is the most versatile overal, this does not always = 'best' of course but the sheer might that is expertise applies to many of the secondary professions (touchers for example). Pure beastmastery build allows a third and far better healing skill [skill]Heal as One[/skill] and very large non line of sight damage via the pet. Traps like some ele spells allow for physical control of chokepoints and tactical advantage on the battlefield even if damage is lower they can apply pressure and move opponents into a deathtrap. Even though mesmers have more interrupt skills in the arsenal, a ranger is the indisputed king of caster shutdown and rage induction

. Ranger has a huge arsenal of aoe damage/dot/condition/and energy denial potential even just in its own attribute lines. However since 'you never fight alone' (except if you are solo farming of course) one has access to other professions and skilled players to fight at your side, and like any other profession a team build is far more versatile than any single profession.

LONGA · Nov 17, 2006, 07:10 PM // 19:10

I can see thats you know almost any profession.I suppose that you have made yourself some build as well.
What I saw in Nightfall right now

Ritualist have more weapon spell which make him bout good damge buff and good protection. But still most of the spells seem to have activation time between 1-3 senconds

Necro have more enchantment removal spell which suppose to counter Dervish. Also a counter shout skill as well.

Monk variety of skill. Condition based skill. Enregy management.Counter knockdown skill.

Elementalist. Mostly focused on energy management.

Mesmer. More Direct damge skill.Especially monk hate skill *-*.

Count to Potato · Nov 17, 2006, 07:11 PM // 19:11

The e/mo is less dependent, it can self heal, blind , knockdown for interupt and run away with ice, atho the dmg is low

lyra_song · Nov 17, 2006, 07:15 PM // 19:15

I would pick Ranger as the best independent class.

They can heal, trap, cause damage, intterupt and i think they synergize very well with many classes.

tomcruisejr · Nov 17, 2006, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Rangers and Necromancers can survive without relying much on secondary professions

Tarkin · Nov 17, 2006, 07:24 PM // 19:24

I live for my ele, but rangers are best to survive by own forces...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Melandrus Resilence<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Sli Ander · Nov 17, 2006, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarkin

I live for my ele, but rangers are best to survive by own forces...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Melandrus Resilence<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I just went back and got that on my monk. I had martyr on, and had so much fun. I was wishing there were more conditions in the Lair by the time I got there. Its an awesome skill(both of them).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Count to Potato

The e/mo is less dependent, it can self heal, blind , knockdown for interupt and run away with ice, atho the dmg is low

You kinda missed the point, though, yes, an E/mo is a powerful combination.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longa

I can see thats you know almost any profession.I suppose that you have made yourself some build as well.

I find that amusing, as the only profession I've played to any great length is my monk. My ranger is my only other character, so pulls a close second. While typing this thing up I had wiki open for reference, but playing a monk does give some insight into other classes the same way playing a mesmer does. A mesmer can watch the enemies skills as they interrupt/target, etc. them. A monk can learn what is good or bad to use in any profession while healing others.

But that's just my two cents

**cosyfiep** · Nov 17, 2006, 07:28 PM // 19:28

to answer the question....the single prof that can stand alone is probably the necro......with the blood skills for health management and NO need for the sacrafice life spells.....even without minions you can stay alive a long time and do some good damage since the armor is a little better (70al for the set I have) than regular caster stuff.....I use blood and curses .....and soul feast if I am really low on health.

otherwise the warrior can stay alive pretty well on his own too.....with stances and such ---and of course better armor. And use dolyak or health signets to bring health back.

the smiting monk.....not really good armor, but if you put your points in healing and smiting you can get a long way with it. (and a few prot spells to boot). the 55hp monks can solo places pretty well and the set up is almost 100% monks skills.

other profs that can 'do it' the ele----geomancer with the extra armor spells but no health management.

rangers can do it as well for the reasons you mentioned in the original post
rits are also well balanced for healing and damage dealing (res and challening), but I havent done much with them so I cant really tell if in the long run they would fit the bill.

cant answer about paragon or dervish yet, though both have some healing and can do damage, will need more play testing on these

and I dont think a mesmer (though I do love to play them) can survive solely on mesmer skills.

well at least thats my opinion from what classes I have played.

Jetdoc · Nov 17, 2006, 07:31 PM // 19:31

A couple of comments:

1. You are missing the ability to have melee/other targets with your build.

In other words:

Ranger - has a pet to absorb damage and take aggro
Necro - has minions to absorb damage and take aggro
Ritualist - has spirits to draw attention away, either in mid-battle or while running away
Warrior - doesn't need anyone else to absorb damage and take aggro
Paragon - could be argued to ditto Warrior due to high AL
Dervish - could be argued to ditto Warrior

That is a weakness of the Monk, Elementalist, Mesmer and Assassin soloing.

2. Restoration Ritualists > Healing Signet > Troll Unguent as best non-monk self heal. I believe that Paragons may have better self heals as well.

Jetdoc · Nov 17, 2006, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosyfiep

and I dont think a mesmer (though I do love to play them) can survive solely on mesmer skills.

Sure they can! Distortion + Elemental/Physical Resistance does wonders.

The only bad part about mesmers is their lack of very efficient (and quick) self heals.

Tarkin · Nov 17, 2006, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Think in partys like...
8 monks
8 rangers
8 mesmers
...

TadaceAce · Nov 17, 2006, 07:43 PM // 19:43

dervish... signet of pious light is good healing, good damage, good tanking ability.

Jetdoc · Nov 17, 2006, 07:46 PM // 19:46

As a very accomplished soloer, here are my quick thoughts as to what makes a class very capable of soloing:

1. Self-Healing.
2. Ability to Flee/Run (which includes the aggro takers I described above).
3. Ability to Interrupt (healers and boss self heals).

4. Damage Mitigation/Avoidance.
5. Ability to do Damage over Time/Behind Objects.

You basically have to have #1 through #3 above to be able to effectively solo, OTHER THAN FOR FARMING. #4 and #5 just make it easier to do so.

My quick run through:

Warrior: Average at #1; Excellent at #2 and #3. Great at soloing.

Monk: Excellent at #1; Terrible at #2 and #3. Other than 55, not ideal for soloing.

Ranger: Average at #1; Excellent at #2 and #3. Great at soloing.

Mesmer: Poor at #1; Average at #2; Excellent at #3. Can solo, but not efficiently, due to good abilities at #4 and #5.

Necro: Average at #1; Excellent at #2; Poor at #3. Pretty good at soloing (due to excellent ability at #5), but has a very hard time against monks/bosses.

Elementalist: Poor at #1; Excellent at #2 and #3. Pretty good at soloing, especially because they are very good at #4 and #5.

Ritualist: Excellent at #1 and #2; average at #3. One of the best classes to solo, although Dissonance is one of the best interrupts they have.

Assassin: Poor at #1; Excellent at #2 and #3. Has a very hard time soloing due to being poor at #4 and #5 as well.

Paragon: Good at #1; Poor at #2; Average at #3. Uncertain as to whether Paragons will be effective soloers.

Dervish: Good at #1; Average at #2 and #3. Good soloers due to being excellent at #4.

FelixCarter · Nov 17, 2006, 07:47 PM // 19:47

I can solo pretty well with my Monk in most areas. You just have to be tactful and careful, but with 15 in Healing and 15 in Smiting, you can run around and smite things to death. You just can't over-agro, though. Signets and Mending do wonders.

Str0b0 · Nov 17, 2006, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Dervishes are probably the least dependent. You could run Dervish skills only and never use your secondary and still be self sufficient. They have lots of good self heals, insane damage output potential and armor buffs for defense. Dervish hands down.

Carth` · Nov 17, 2006, 08:55 PM // 20:55

For least reliance on a secondary I would have to say ranger. When wielding a bow, a ranger has everything he needs without a secondary, and Expertise is just such a great primary attribute, no wonder it needed so many "adjustments".

Some people said necro... I don't play one but every necro I see used either monk to heal their sacrificing or mesmer to duplicate a powerful spell. Rare is it you see a necro not needing his secondary.

For most versatile in terms of forming a party with only one class, I'd have to say monks. You have your tank and smite groups, but really a team of 8 monks has all the healing it needs, and smiting for killing. Ranger would be a close second though, with barrage/pet groups and trapper teams.

Nanood · Nov 17, 2006, 09:06 PM // 21:06

The guy who stays at the original spawn point and never moves in to the battle with anyone else is the most likely to survive hehe..

If your not takin any damage you definetly are the least dependant.

Those bastards just never die.

Just a bit of fun